One a visit to Ireland I saw one of the most beautiful moments I have ever seen and I am not sure if on this side of the pond in America if we will get it.
It was a group of gentlemen older than myself singing in a brotherhood of men where their boyhood innocence was still present in their maturity and the guarded competition so apparent in this culture was missing.

It is true for both se x es but I can speak more for my own.
We are always trying to out do one another more custom than the next guys, more unique, more powerful, faster than the next guys, a girl friend who is better eye candy than the next guys...
We seem to be constantly in this state of trying to assure our rank in the pack and show evidence of our success and dominance through what we control or who we control.
I would be more interested in a Fellowship the myth of which began in the Table Round and in the washing of feet by Jesus. Do you think we could ever stop competing long enough to see our equality and common-ness? Is there any way we can change it from a dog eat dog..leader of the pack mentality to a Brotherhood of diverse and different equals where what one brings to the table is oneself and that is worthy be he or she weaker than ourselves in any given area. Could we not find the greatest strength in bonding our weaknesses to anothers strength and just being who we are with no fear of being ostracized for what we lack but being welcomed for what we bring?

Granted the human psyche spans thousands of years in this one instant but some times fiction does become reality.

Well I for one am for Fellowship. I am tired of One Upmanship. I am no better or worse than you regardless of what I do or don't posses. I am flesh and blood a creature of divine creation.

Chkn,
I don't think you have to lay down the sword just keep it in the scabbard until it is absolutely necessary to draw it out. It is funny though most people today don't even know what a scabbard is and most ornamental swords are displayed naked something that would have been uncouth only 5 centuries ago.
"Merlin asked Arthur which do you treasure more the sword or the scabbard? Arthur responded why the sword Merlin look how beautifully forged its blade and how ornate the pommel and hilt.
Then ye none the wiser for as long as the scabbard is by your side never shall ye loose a drop of blood in battle said Merlin" A close paraphrase of Tennyson in Idylls of the King.
It was the stealing of the scabbard by his half sister that lead to his death and the disappearance of his Kingdom.

"Stress to be the baddest"....I like that it is a lot of stress that is non-sense


AJ,
You really thrust up some great thoughts around Nietsche. Thank you.

Crazy Romantic

I actualy copied and pasted the comments from Gefallen and Springer Soul into a text file thinking that they were very interesting and something I would like to read over again and maybe respond to, but realisticaly by the time I get around to reading them over again with a Funk and Wagnal's clutched in my knuckle-dragging hands and have the time to actualy sit and bang out a reply, it will be years from now and the world will have turned many times, and all those interesting thoughts as expressed will have been forgotten. That's a shade to, because I realy enjoyed reading y'all's comments. (Even if I didn't understand them all a t the first go-round. Anyway...



It isn't realy such a t all. The protection squads were formed to protect a certain evil person, and by default a certain evil regime, and they unfortunately did a very good job of it, for something like 20 + years. I don't see any incongruity in that a t all.

I feel and believe in what you are putting forth here, and it is indeed a noble dream, but alas, I am afraid the answer is no. The best we can hope for is fleeting moments of what we dream of.

And we now look upon the table round and realize our blessings, all is good
in our world, we fellowship and none have need or want. So , if Good and Evil
must always be present, as we all know to be truth, where in our world does
Evil hide it's ugly head tonight?

Ahh, Evil lurks where you least expect it. But most assuredly, it lurks in
the hearts of men. For it only appears to our eyes that none have need or want.
It is man's never-ending failure to be unsatisfied with what he has or his current station in life. Sad as it is, man is the best and the worst our world has to offer the universe.

I've heard that before Roxie, that we are created in the image of God, and I always have to wonder just how far does that go? The image of mankind shows a long and complete history of violence, love, pettiness, altruism, spite, selflessness, anger, artistic beauty, jealousy, creativity...oh, the possible list boggles the mind, it does. But are all these very human traits a reflection of the God that made us then? Are we humans truly a reflection of that God that made us in his image?

I have found fellowship starts within. I first must have peace within myself that I am where I am happy and then the fellowship with myself begins. It then radiates and the people around me desire that same fellowship with me that I have with myself. I inturn gravitate to the people that have that same fellowship within themselves. When in the presence of each other that energy flows and emanates to others and they desire the same.

A person without that fellowship is recognized w/o word being spoken...

I am much like the men you disribed. The compitition ends with me. I just don't take part in it. Someone has to be the first to lay down the sword so to speak. I know that if I remove the stess to be the baddest, I always end up with more people to laugh with. Rattleing ones sabre will only begot more sabre rattleing. Always great people with confidence in yourself with honesty and repect and people can't help but respect you. When there is respect, I don't know why but the compitition always ends and people know it's ok to relax.

SS, where did your new picture go? That was gorgeous! Angel wants to know where it toooooo!

We were created in the image of GOD, even He looked down upon his grand design and saw that it was lacking...So HE created Adam for fellowship and created EVE to finnish the project!

AJ,
Thank you. Your dialogue is helping me pick up a lost road.

I recognize that your first statement identifies the error in the quoted piece above.
I don't think or feel that it is what we "know" in our soul is right. I think it is how our actions make us "feel" that justifies their execution or restraint. This misleads many to think they know what is right and allows the illusion of being a rational being when in truth as individuals and a collective we are far more emotional than we recognize and if the feeling about our actions or choices bothers us than we use reason to dismiss or approve it but I sense that feeling is first and reasoning second. So while we may have rational faculties we are not the rational beings we maker ourselves out to be.
Given that the rational function is a much later and rare appearance in the human being it would stand to reason that the more hardwired instincts and feelings could easily trump higher ideals or goals but a t the same time the individual who needs to find acceptance of their actions and choices could use the faculty of reason to rationalize what they have done to appease a painful emotional response. Physical pain and discomfort like emotional pain (ex. guilt- which the Irish depict as creatures gnawing on a personage) indicate that something damaging has been done but reason can dismiss it. The choice of action or behviour than is not necessarily rational first and foremost but takes on the appearance of reason when reflection gains the moment and the higher faculty of conscience steps in to justify, dismiss or approve what has been done.

The Ubermensch is but a nurse maid working with a pregnant mother to deliver what must be delivered but does not control the actual birth but only offers the presence of self to assit the baby's delivery. He or she is neither the child or the mother so they are limited in what they can do but being perceptive to the progress of birth they offer assistance through out time by what they offer in the present. A warm towel, a word of encouragement, a hand to hold, a word of praise...all these help but can guarantee nothing about the outcome.

Rational "thinking" and "feeling" are so misconstrued. Ever ask someone what they feel? About something or some one? Nine out of ten times they say "I think that.....".

The cognative mind steps in immediately, as opposed to an "I feel, angry... or hurt... or sad, or happy, or content...etc."

Back to that old Hemlock drinker, Socrates who said "Man is a rational animal." We use our strong sense of reason to justify just about anything... or on the other end of the spectrum, to brow beat ourselves about what we did wrong.

I can sense SS that you are a spiritual man, and your clear references to the New Testament seem to back it up. Interestingly enough, I am addressing you with the initials of the Shutz Staffel, which in itself is a logical incongruity. I apologize, but it is easier than spelling out your whole name:)

Well, Thomas Aquinas took Socrates and melded it with the idea of Natural Law. Natural Law, or God"s law, is the normative or moral values we all know in our soul are right. So, he came up with "Man is a rational being because God gave man reason."

So, if we take that path, we see that our sense of reason, being divine in origin (and I do not mean to insult any other religions or pantheon's here so please read Divine and God as meaning that power that is our sense of spirituality) makes most of us balance our thoughts, and feelings with that with which we have been divinely inspired.

So, that being said: AJ's abridged Dictionary defines true fellowship as:

Thoughts of care and devotion to another, or a group of others, with the respect so accorded; coupled with a feeling of the most basic love and empathy for another or group of others, coupled again with the spiritual connection to them to touch on a level that humans have striven years to be able to pinpoint and describe.

Under that definition (which granted is only my own) I consider myself both lucky, as well as blessed, to find it in my life. And one dose of that, even if it is for a fleeting moment can carry me over miles of hurdles, one-upsmanship, weightlifting contests, tough man competitions, and male member measuring contests.

Just a thought. You are an insightful soul SS... any thoughts where I may further strentghen my definition or any critiques of its weakness?

GeFallen,
I agree it isn't a cognitive concept which is why it can't be created by intellectual thought even though it can be conceived by intellectual thought.
I think to the Liddy comment you mentioned I might cast back to another time,
I so loved my brothers though they knew me not I laid my arms open to them and did not fight them. I took their beatings and insults because I loved them though they knew me not and when they were done pounding the nails through my flesh and placing me on my beloveds door I forgave them for the knew me not. I did all this that they might one day know the strength of my love for them and that I would never leave them though they knew me not.

A saying attributed to the Iriquois,
"the greatest strength is in gentleness."

The world is what we perceive it to be but like the very brains own pliability the world to can change when we change how we see it..

Seeme--great comment it does start with the children. Do you ever wonder why so many children movies and stories immediately create and perpetuate and "us and them" mentality?

Thank each of you for the great comments and honesty it is the food of fellowship.

Jerry, what a great testimony! Yes, I agree. I started working around the same age. Being satisfied with your own life allows others the same satisfaction or a t least the room to find it.
Thank you for piping in!

i believe that this type of fellowship is attainable by some---there are those whose low self-esteem allows them in order to feel good about themselves above others--so to truely meet this ideal we need to be able to come up with a way to build and maintain our childrens self-esteem and not teach them our insecuritues and prejudices

SS:

I would call you a romantic, but your post sparked mostly of realism.

Hobbes, and a bunch of other great minds always try to cast humanity in such a way as to make the world a model of brutality and abuses, and thus the need for a commonality of purpose and security to overcome it.

I have never desired to be an Ubermensch. I have never listened to Wagner to try to find the power. Though I have had many a physical altercation in my life, it was never a planned occurrance ... like G. Gordon Liddy's "then I held my hand over the flame, just to show how tough I was."

Of course, though my memory does not give rise to the One upsmanship you speak of, I am sure through the eyes of others, or 20/20 hindsight, I am wrong. I am sure I have participated in that same gamesmanship you wrote of.

Fellowship/Brotherhood is a remarkable thing. I have found it a few times in my life. When folks touch on my being such that a mark will be everlasting, I certainly hope that it will be on the level you describe.

I am basically a riches to rags story now. And with the rags, for the first time I have felt comfortable in my skin. Also, I think I have been developing "fellowship" and "brotherhood" more I think. But I don't think fellowship is a cognative concept. I think it is something you "feel". I hope that that feeling is around the corner for you.

And, I sure hope you continue to post like you do...

I have been praying for this kind of fellowship in our world for a long time, what a better world we would be able to live in if everyone would do this. I will continue to pray for this until I can no longer take a breath. I would like a better fellowship for my son to live in, and his children and their children, etc.

SS........you are quite a man....i think it might be called unconditional love........will the whole human race be able to do it, i think with human nature as it is, it is sad, but in reality i think the answer is no...but for the ones who are capabable to give and recieve, for them the fellowship is a reality....hopefully just a little of that gets passed on to someone and the ball starts to roll.....if one person could be that way for just one other person, then the whole world could become a fellowship.....never say never....

Many a man live that way it's never been my style. Started working @ 13 so I could buy my own clothes and motorcycle without burdening my folks any more than I had to. Always liked going fast but never felt the need to be the fastest. I even enjoy loosing a close race, knowing I did everything right makes it fun. Never been a cheater or thief as many are to advance themselfs in life. I always go to bed with a clear conscience and no regrets for the day just completed and look forward to tomorrow. Loving my trade has much to do with my feelings and lifestyle for if you are not happy with what you do and create each day then how can one be happy with their life. Eye Candy Gals are fun to look @ as some of nature's best artwork but regular gals tend to be more real, appreciative of little things and less maintenance. I respect nature, my sorroundings and good health I have been blessed with and realize it all can come to an end any moment. I fear not where I came from or where I shall wind up when I'm done here knowing all my good accomplishments throughout life outweigh the failures.

You, my dear SSoul, are all that a man should be! Never ever change!